Almost 65 and retired. Raised by an East Coast liberal. I am also a child of the sixties.

What the next World War might look like

Posted Monday, June 25, 2012, at 6:54 PM

There is a lot of talk about building up our military at a substantial cost to us the taxpayer. There will be skirmishes for sure, but nothing big enough to justify the dollars spent.

How many of you have followed the news about "Flame" and "Stuxnet"? This where the next real war will be fought. Don't believe me? Ask Idaho Power why they are building their own private fiber backbone to all of their substations. This endeavor aint cheap folks, and we are paying for it. The internet has become too dangerous for our infrastructure. Stop and think about it. The right worm placed by an enemy could shut down all the power in this country for a very long time. No water service. No gas service, no cell phone service. Economically we could be brought to our knees in a matter of days by the right worm.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/powerful-flame-cyber-weapon-found-135931201.html

Read it carefully and do your own research. I'm only guessing, but to protect our infrastructure with a private, secure fiber backbone, isolated from the world wide web, would cost at least 1 Trillion dollars. Is it worth it? Who should pay for it? How would it be paid for?

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We may be the leader, but we don't have any reliable defense. The only reliable defense is intranet. Thousands and thousands of miles of buried fiber.

Would you have known about Idaho Power's backbone if I hadn't told you? Bet you didn't know your paying for it every month.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Wed, Jun 27, 2012, at 6:59 PM
Microwave has proved too unreliable, other public utilities rely on electricity. Private buried intranet is the only option. Keep in mind that this very expensive undertaking has no real ROI, so going to the bond market doesn't look too good.

You seem like a reasonable fellow, what's fastest way to procure funds in the amount I mentioned?

Keep in mind that the private sector will provide all the equipment, materials, and labor to get this done. For every dollar borrowed and spent, 2 dollars more will be generated in the economy, and that is a conservative estimate.

It may be too late to completely protect our power grid, but even 50-60% would give us a fighting chance at survival.

The only other option is to forgo a grid period, and build power generating plants in each city. By the time everyone got done bickering about what kind of plant and where to build it, we would be goners.

So what say you?

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Wed, Jun 27, 2012, at 8:09 PM
By the way, I know this money has to be repaid, and that cuts will need to be made to make this whole thing feasible, but tell me, how much use will we get out of a 800+ billion dollar a year military if the power goes away?

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Wed, Jun 27, 2012, at 8:25 PM
Thanks

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Thu, Jun 28, 2012, at 2:25 PM
Do you know how much money is spent on Gitmo on our POW's? Per prisoner? That is money poorly spent.

There is your answer in part, Roy

Jessie

-- Posted by jessiemiller on Thu, Jun 28, 2012, at 9:30 PM
Gee Roy, I would think that we might see at least SOME sort of use for the military if the grid went down. I mean, I'm pretty sure they have lots of those water purification things, and water trucks to haul it with. And maybe they could dredge up a generator or two to hook up to some of the water wells around the valley. And one those high calory, ready to eat meal bags they have could make meals for 2 or 3 people a day if need be. Then there are all of those green trucks that could be used to distribute fuel to privately owned generators at the hospitals, state offices and law enforcement....

And by the way, Roy, how good a job do you figure Idaho Power could do keeping the bad guys from taking over while the lights are out?

-- Posted by wh67 on Thu, Jun 28, 2012, at 9:53 PM
Warren, you missed my point I think.

1st, a nationwide intranet would keep the lights on.

2nd, an attack like the one I described would not be a precursor to an invasion, we would be economically ruined, a large 3rd world country with a big military, but no power.

Countries that would mount this kind of attack don't have the military might to fight us. They would sit back and watch us fight each other, just look how divided we are now.

Somebody took down the Iranian nuclear program, at least on a temporary basis without a shot fired, or a bomb dropped.

Believe me, these 2 worms or viruses are not the best that can be done.

Jessie, I have no use for Gitmo, or it's techniques.

To both of you, yes we need a military, but 800 Billion dollars a year? That's 30% of total revenues. This backbone would be our first line of defense in an economic war.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Fri, Jun 29, 2012, at 5:01 AM
Whether we feel we "have use" for it or not, our Govt spends a sickening amount of money there. I'd like to see that changed.

-- Posted by jessiemiller on Fri, Jun 29, 2012, at 11:55 PM
For what ever reason, and we may never know, Obama was talked out of closing it. Our own private torture chamber immune to our laws. it has no strategic value.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Sat, Jun 30, 2012, at 6:15 AM
Gitmo a torture chamber? We must be talking if two different things. From what I read, we spend a fortune on those prisoners. They have every thing but freedom. Their payment? Wanting to kill an American. 800,000 is what we pay. I could do it so much cheaper.

-- Posted by jessiemiller on Sat, Jun 30, 2012, at 9:24 AM
Mike, it was 500 Million not Billion, huge difference. Almost 25% of the authorized funds were never spent, and almost 25% of the stimulus were tax cuts, but I know, that doesn't matter, does it?

Jessie, so you think water boarding and such isn't torture, as well as the other enhanced interrogation techniques aren't torture? What is your solution for the prisoners there? Summary execution? They are dangerous without a doubt, but what do we do with them?

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Sat, Jun 30, 2012, at 12:45 PM
George W. should be charged with War Crimes... And he lied.

He said he didn't know about the water boarding however after he was out of office they found some taped conversations where he was talking about what was going on there.

I have also heard some wanted him brought up on charges but Obama wouldn't do it.

-- Posted by MsMarylin on Sat, Jun 30, 2012, at 12:59 PM
One needs to keep in mind that Obama issued the executive order to close GTMO less than 48 hours after his inauguration. It was among the first of many "promises" he kept to those who got him elected.

It also seems to have evolved into one of his first failed policy decisions.

The reason that the closure was not accomplished in the time frame Obama decreed (1 year) is relatively simple. The Congress refused to cut funding for the operation of GTMO until Obama gave them a plan for achieving just punishment for the "detainees", which some 70% of Americans felt was necessary for those that not only wanted to, but indeed DID, kill Americans. Let's not forget that this was a Democratically controlled Congress that insisted on this plan.

The executive order also appointed the Attorney General to lead all trials, effectively extending these POWs Constitutional "protections". Starting to sound familiar?

Other than 3 meals and a rug to sleep on, we don't owe these thugs a thing.

As for the costs of holding these terrorists, I hear what you're saying, Jessie. I think I have some "old" provisions that I would donate.

-- Posted by wh67 on Sat, Jun 30, 2012, at 1:15 PM
Mike, an isolated island, once a month air drops, comes to mind.

I don't know about the rest of the money.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Sat, Jun 30, 2012, at 6:52 PM
ZOOK.......would you say that obstruction had anything to do with some of what you said???? I would also like to know how you turn around a recession that had started 10 yrs earlier and reached and apex as you took office.IS there a magic wand you wave and it stops or do you work your way out as we have done many times before.We had patence then why not now????? HE DIDNT CREATE WHAT WERE IN.SO THEREFORE TO STOP THE SLIDE.STABLIZE ,AND THEN ADVANCE WAS HIS JOB .HE HAS DONE THAT. It took 10yrs to create, you sure wont fix it in 3.TOOK us that long just to train and institute the so called surge so we need to talk of reality.I think GOV ROMNEY WOULD STILL HAVE US .....DEEP IN FIGHTING IN iraq because it was good for the economy and you know who would be doing the dying.I will not say everything was done right but I dont see anymore errors than any other president to include REAGAN.WE have treated this person like the saying goes a" step child" AND WE FEEL GOOD ABOUT IT...that amazes me.The disrespect started before he took office.IT started the night he won.

THese cowards we have in congress refuse to do the right thing and drop it on him.ILL say it again were in the constitution does it call for "PROFESSIONAL POLITCIANS".YES we are the term limits but we too are cowards and refuse to vote them out because they kissed our niece.cong.ISSA would rathere expose our agents to make a political point than conduct a viable investigation...So he succeded in embarrasing HOLDER AND.......HOLDER is not going to release documents that could affect international relations or national security he is sworn not to.That was the same reason LTC NORTH TOOK THE HIT IN THE REAGAN ERA.We need to open our minds and not deal with our pet peeves.The latest edition of the conspiracy that set you up for gun control is so laughable it doesnt even justify talking about. anyhow JUST A FEW THOUGHTS.......TALK TO YOU .......LATER

-- Posted by lamont on Sat, Jun 30, 2012, at 9:03 PM
I don't get why your always saying its Bush's fault. You point your finger at Obama when he has failures but you don't like it when a finger is pointed at Bush's failures. What were suppose to not mention Bush failures only Obama's?

I believe there has never been a President that didn't have failures? Can you name one?

-- Posted by MsMarylin on Sat, Jun 30, 2012, at 9:07 PM
Ms M YOU said it was Bush 's fault.

-- Posted by jessiemiller on Sat, Jun 30, 2012, at 9:50 PM
Not on this blog.. I said he lied about the water boarding going on, not saying fault.

-- Posted by MsMarylin on Sat, Jun 30, 2012, at 9:55 PM
George W. should be charged with War Crimes... And he lied.

Same as fault in my eyes....but you're right.

-- Posted by jessiemiller on Sat, Jun 30, 2012, at 9:58 PM
Mike, you do understand that every budget plan submitted by the Republican's so far have deficits for the next 8 to 10 years don't you? We have talked about this before. You know where I stand on things like foreign aid and overseas bases. There are stupid and wasteful expenditures from both sides. It still comes down to everyone wants the ox gored, but not their ox, be it social services or the military, or you name it.

Jobs are coming back already if you haven't noticed. Manufacturing jobs. Beware of the super fast recovery, it is no more than a bubble waiting to burst. Just look at housing. A slow and steady, well engineered recovery is the safest bet. Those companies that whine about rules and regulations are the companies that caused the rules and regulations due to their bad behavior.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Sun, Jul 1, 2012, at 8:33 AM
BTW, it's nice to have a discussion without all the name calling, thanks.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Sun, Jul 1, 2012, at 8:34 AM
THAT is what I AM SAYING AND HAVE SAID ROY.....I would only add that you cannot pay down the dept ceiling in a recession,and the dept is not all we have to worry about.WE keep hearing about 8,ooo new rules hello.......how many supercede some othere how many replace some other. WERE is the list?....WHAT rules has been added? Havnt heard anyone state A specific.PRIVATE SECTOR PROFITS ARE UP AND THERE STILL COMPLAINING I CALL THAT GREED.JOB CREATION IS UP AND THE STOCK MARKET IS STEADY.NOW if your looking for a boom you are looking for trouble in the long term almost all the economist agree on that. So what is it you are looking for ZOOK?......I agree stop....forgien aid,bring the military home,stop oil and farm subsidies,we could go on but we all know what really needs to happen........get special interest out of our pockets.I AM TIRED OF CEO'S GETTING PAYED INFLATED WAGES ON THE TAXEPAYERS DIME........MAKE money yes but quite legally stealing from me.

-- Posted by lamont on Sun, Jul 1, 2012, at 10:02 AM
Of course there are positions that need to go. Our government needs to go on a diet.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Sun, Jul 1, 2012, at 7:45 PM
Very true. Does it surprise you this old "liberal" agrees with you on many points?

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Sun, Jul 1, 2012, at 8:24 PM
YOU know I agree I SAID FROM THE BEGINNING REDUNDANCY ALONE COST US BILLIONS.We have talked about this they have never proposed a pay freeze or anything for themselves.....as far as I am concerned they shouldnt get payed for the last 3 yrs a least.NO budget because one side or the other could not come to agreement and dont forget the fillibuster.I am not holding only the republicans responsible,It goes to what is best for the country and like I said not special intrest.

It is not hard to come to solutions.....when you make them without prior commitment.The need to commit to us or go home........got to run ........later

-- Posted by lamont on Sun, Jul 1, 2012, at 11:37 PM
wow.....how easy to discuss without the name calling....

-- Posted by lamont on Sun, Jul 1, 2012, at 11:45 PM
I lost what I wrote earlier so here we go again.......I dont vote party,best person for the job for me.With that said.....we will never get a clean sweep but we can get significant change.The key for me is special interest.I want people who will go after what is best for the country and tell special intrest that is the way it is goibg to be, we will call you if we need you..I want people who will recognize fairness and equality without having to have it pointed out, the need to cut and raise revenue to pay down the dept ,and do it in a way that all segments of the society has a stake in it because we all benefit from it.

I have said it before this blog could solve the problems because we dont have anybody's special intrest paying us to do something we know isnt right.WE have discussed every solution needed and if we can do it they ought to be able to if they cant they need to come home.AGAIN THEY GO TO CONGRESS POOR AND COME BACK MULTIMILLIONARES HOW DOES THAT WORK ON A 170,00.00 A YR SALARY?? I PERSONALL HAVE A THING WITH RANGEL I,I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY THE PEOPLE IN HIS DISTRICT SEND HIM BACK HE SHOULD BE GONE.I am glad I no longer call N.Y. home he may not represent where I lived but I would campaign against him in a heartbeat.He is but one example.

Thanks for the sanity MARVIN WE HAVE BEEN AT THIS A WHILE AND WE DO GO OFF ON TANGENTS. CAMPAIGN FINANCE.......THE ABSOLUTE WORST THING THAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED TO OUR LIBERTY.......MY OPINION. WE ARE HARD AT IT BUYING GOVERNMENT THAT WILL NOT SERVE THE GOVERNED.THOSE WHO PASSED IT DONT FEEL THE IMPACT OF BEING GOVERNED AND NEVER WILL SO IT WAS AND EASY THING TO DO.......LATER

-- Posted by lamont on Mon, Jul 2, 2012, at 1:56 PM
FOR those who might be interested in letters to the editor in the statesman there is a letter from and 80 yr old idahoan .......you might want to read it.Very keen observation from and older citezen who has been there.

-- Posted by lamont on Mon, Jul 2, 2012, at 1:59 PM
I think it is hilarious that both sides have been screaming for years about these "partisan" and "activist" judges of the SCOTUS. How they should just stick to their jobs of interpreting the laws and rendering a constitutional decision.

Now that the SCOTUS has done just that, interpreted a law as to its constitutional content and breaking with partisan politics, everyone who didn't like the decision screams "How could John Roberts vote that way...he's supposed to be a conservative."

Either you want the SCOTUS to be a separate branch of our government, or you want them to rubber stamp their decisions based on the majorities political leaning. You can't have it both ways.

-- Posted by Mercutio on Mon, Jul 2, 2012, at 2:15 PM
Marvin, I've been screaming about campaign finance reform forever. We have the best government money can buy! Term limits? 1 6 year term for the President and Senators. 3 2 year terms for Representatives. To encourage 3rd parties, no plurality in any federal election, you gotta take a majority, or it's run off time. Campaigning limited to 6 weeks before a national primary, 2 weeks later, conventions, 6 weeks later national elections. Neat, simple and clean.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Mon, Jul 2, 2012, at 8:30 PM
SO ......MONEY FIRST PUBLIC WELFARE ......??? question how many deaths are related??? How much does the CEO get paid???WHY are they still in business???.......I KNOW, PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY THE GOVERNMENT HAS NO PLACE........HELLO!!!!you are right marvin it just set me on fire i know people who took those drugs.

SOME here will say that's capitalism love it or leave it,seems like we have capitalistic DEATH PANELS and they are operating .....NOW..........thanks MARV.....HAVE A GOOD ONE.

-- Posted by lamont on Mon, Jul 2, 2012, at 9:51 PM
Sad thing is, the consumer will end up paying the fine via higher prices. How about locking up the the board of directors, president, vp's etc. Anyone involved. Corporations are people too.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Tue, Jul 3, 2012, at 5:47 AM
SO SEN MCCNNAL says 30 mill uninsured is not the issue .....he says this on fox news.....So what is the issue FOR HIM???? I wonder how many shares of stock he has in insurance co',AND HEALTH CARE CLINICS CORPS THAT ARE SHOWING UP EVERYWHERE. HMMMMMMMMMM

-- Posted by lamont on Tue, Jul 3, 2012, at 8:10 AM
Seems like the drug companies have their own death panels. Pushing off label use, on kids no less. Anything to make a freaking buck! If this is free market capitalism, it sucks!

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Tue, Jul 3, 2012, at 10:04 AM
The "anything for a buck" ideology is not unique to American capitalism. GSK is a British operation. And the Brits are pioneers in socialized medicine.

-- Posted by wh67 on Tue, Jul 3, 2012, at 12:30 PM
Warren, socialized medicine has nothing to do with this companies behavior. It was the American division that did this terrible and dangerous thing. There is no excusing it!

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Tue, Jul 3, 2012, at 12:51 PM
And I suppose the CEO over there in Great Britian didn't know a THING about it until he read it in the news. And while it probably started under one of the Bush administrations, we are so fortunate that it was ferreted out and corrected by Holder..........

-- Posted by wh67 on Tue, Jul 3, 2012, at 1:17 PM
I don't give a rip about who was where and when, they all belong in JAIL!

This isn't about Obama, Holder, you name it!

It's about corporate greed killing people!

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Tue, Jul 3, 2012, at 1:40 PM
Mike, that's the national average, here in Idaho we are the last ones to see prices go and the last ones to see them go down. That's what happens when all the gasoline comes from just one pipeline owned by Chevron. I got diesel yesterday at the Shell for 3.65, same as regular. In Canyon County it's still about 3.75, Regular gas is about 3.57 here. Go figure. Try asking Chevron about the prices, they control them. Free market my butt. Can you say monopoly?

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Tue, Jul 3, 2012, at 3:46 PM
IT'S never here ZOOK....that's national average.WE have had to go after the oil barons a couple of times because idaho would be so high in respect to the rest of the nation.They tell us we are at the end of the food chain.......and FREE MARKET CAPITALISM......THAT IS WHAT SOME PEOPLE WANT UNFETTERED GOUGE THE MIDDLE CLASS TILL THEY HAVE NOTHING.I SAW A TRUCK AT THE AUTO RANCH FORD F-150 JUST 44,698.OO THATS ALL WHAT THE HECK.ME i dont want to live in it I just want to go from point A to point B.

A thought....the health care act is not about fixing you when you are sick it is about maintaining you so you dont get sick or as sick.The military does it they maintaine there resources ,in this case people that is why they work harder and longer.The objecT here is wellnes and the government did not take over your care the government really wants to pay for it.I havent figured out how yet but that is the premise.....think about how it is set up you will get it.........later........hey marv you read the guys letter?????

-- Posted by lamont on Tue, Jul 3, 2012, at 3:59 PM
Every station in Idaho either gets it gas from Chevron or brings it in from Salt Lake City or Portland by tanker truck,(an expensive proposition), the refinery in Salt Lake City only refines American oil as far as I know. Guess who owns the refinery? You got it, Chevron.

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Tue, Jul 3, 2012, at 4:46 PM
Chevron does own the pipeline, but there are actually 5 refineries in Utah, Roy. Chevron's production is about is about one third of the total overall output.

Here is a listing from Wikipedia:

* North Salt Lake Refinery (Big West Oil), North Salt Lake 35,000 bbl/d (5,600 m3/d)

* Salt Lake City Refinery (Chevron), Salt Lake City 45,000 bbl/d (7,200 m3/d)

* Salt Lake City Refinery (Tesoro), Salt Lake City 58,000 bbl/d (9,200 m3/d)

* Woods Cross Refinery (Holly Corporation), Woods Cross 26,000 bbl/d (4,100 m3/d)

* Woods Cross Refinery (Silver Eagle Refining), Woods Cross 10,200 bbl/d (1,620 m3/d)

At the same time, many of northern Idaho's service stations get their products from refineries in Washington State, although some are served by the same pipeline that goes through Boise and on to Pasco.

-- Posted by wh67 on Tue, Jul 3, 2012, at 10:50 PM
I stand corrected. So any answer for Mike why our prices are still way over the national average?

-- Posted by royincaldwell on Tue, Jul 3, 2012, at 10:59 PM
Location, location, location?

Location of the refineries and pipeline. They are where they are, and there is virtually zero chance of them moving or creating more of them in the current political environment. So we are a very captive audience.

Location of the raw materials. The refineries in Utah have undertaken huge expansions over the last half dozen years, mostly aimed at increasing their ability to process so called black wax crude. Somewhat the consistency of shoe polish, the stuff must be transported overland via tankers, which as you note is costly. Keep in mind that the investments that have been made in the Utah refineries are almost exclusively tied to this crude.

Location of the demand. This one may be the most significant. For several decades, the western US has created a huge industry based on "use" of its abundant scenic and other natural resources. The vast majority of this occurs during the summer months and relies heavily on travel from the eastern two thirds of the country. Coupled with mushrooming immigration into both Utah and Idaho over the past couple of decades, and you have the perfect scenario to exercise the old "make hay while the sun shines" approach.

Just my take.

-- Posted by wh67 on Wed, Jul 4, 2012, at 11:20 AM

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